On 12-4-69 at approximately 1200 hours, Deputies Gleason and Palmer proceeded to the Sybil Brand Institute to interview one BRENDA MC CANN at her request. The interview took place in an Attorney Room at Sybil Brand Institute where the above subject was being held as a material witness. Subject McCann stated in substance as follows: That she had heard from the newspapers that Sharon Tate had come up to the ranch; that she believed they had the wrong Sharon; that it was not Sharon Tate but another girl named Sharon who played in bit parts in low-grade movies.

She further stated that a STEPHANIE SCHRAM had told her while they were at the ranch about what a SADIE GLUTZ had done to a guy with a knife. Sadie Glutz had related to Stephanie that she had knifed a guy and killed him and that she had enjoyed it. Further, that a JUANITA WILDBUSH, FW/25, 5/5. 150, long blonde hair, had been brought to the ranch by Sadie after picking up Sadie in a 1960 Dodge camper truck. That Juanita had approximately $15,000.00 on her; that she gave George Spahn $5,000.00 and she gave Charlie a large sum of money.

He, in turn, bought a couple of dune buggies with it from Butler’s Buggy Shop, 10200 Topanga Canyon in Chatsworth. Juanita bought a large amount of food, some guitars and some tapestry with the money. That she was originally from the New Jersey area and had been going to school for approximately 5 to 6 years, got tired of it and decided to start blowing her money that her grandfather had left in trust for her.

Brenda stated that she went to the desert with a group of girls and that Charlie came up shortly after; that they had buried 2 shotguns, both belonging to Brenda’s father, in the creek bed and that as far as she knew they were still there. That Brenda had used and let other people use a credit card that was in her father’s name for gas and had never gotten it back. This interview was recorded and will be retained for further review.

At approximately 1345 hours this date, we interviewed SUSAN ROGERS, F/40, Booking #357-242, who had earlier related to a female deputy that Sadie had made numerous statements regarding the Sharon Tate murder and that she had had a confidential information with Sadie. When asked about this, Inmate Rogers refused to make any comment and stated she had nothing to say to us.

She did make a short statement that Sadie had been talking to numerous inmates in the dorm, that she had not paid any attention to them and knew nothing we should know. It is believed by the two investigating officers this inmate is withholding a great deal of information. This interview was concluded at approximately 1400 hours.

On 12-4-69 at approximately 1900 hours, the above investigation officers proceeded to 1920 South Roberts Lane, City of Anaheim, to the residence of STEPAHNIE SCHRAM, Phone (714) 638-9227. At this time an interview was conducted with Miss Schram in the presence of her parents at her residence. She stated that she met Charlie at Big Sur about 8-3-69, then went to the Spahn Ranch 2 days later.

During this time she lived in the Devil’s Canyon area and did not go to the Spahn Ranch proper until the night prior to the raid of the Spahn Ranch on 8-16-69. She was released from custody about 8-18-69, returned to the Spahn Ranch and stayed there until she was arrested again with Manson about 8-23-69. She was arrested for trespassing and possession of marijuana. Manson was booked at Malibu Station and she was sent to Juvenile Hall.

She was released from custody at Juvenile Hall to her parents who returned her to her home. On 9-10-69, she called the Spahn Ranch and Charles Manson, Clem Tufts and Lynn Fromme drove to Anaheim and picked her up. They returned to the Spahn Ranch, stayed at the Spahn Ranch for a few hours; they then left for Death Valley in the green 1969, 4-door, which was rented with a stolen credit card. She stated about 10-1-69, Sadie Glutz arrived at the desert. During conversations at the desert, she said that Sadie was bragging that she had stabbed a guy in the leg and also bragged of killing other people.

Charlie had held classes for the girls on how to kill people and had asked different girls if they could kill the “pigs” from the city. That Charlie showed them how to stab people in the neck and stated if they were going to stab someone, they should try to cut the person from ear to ear, also to stab them in either ear or eyes and then wiggle the knife around to get as many of the vital organs as possible. She further stated that Charlie demonstrated on her how to stab someone if the need arose.

Charlie further threatened anyone in the camp that if they left they would be killed; that he would send people out to take care of whoever that left. She stated that Charlie furnished each girl with a buck knife and had told them that it was to kill the “pigs with.” It is probably for this reason that the people were afraid to leave the camp due to the threats of being harmed and this apparently is the reason the persons did what Manson told them to do. Manson also told them if they killed someone, that they would have to learn how to cut the person up and get rid of the parts so no one could find them; that if the girls didn’t obey him, he threatened to cut one of their breasts off; that if they ever did have to kill anyone, that they were to cut the person’s head off and that they would boil the head and use the skulls.

Miss Schram further stated that upon hearing and reading of the Sharon Tate murder prior to the recent arrest, she believed in her own mind from statements that Charlie Manson had made and things he had said while in the desert, that he and others staying with the “Family” in the desert had in fact killed Sharon Tate. She based these reasons on the following: That Sadie and Gypsy had talked about the way the Mau Mau’s kill people and used their skulls, also because of the word “Pigs” and the dismemberment or alleged mutilations which took place on Sharon Tate’s body (indistinguishable) with threats that Charlie had earlier made (indistinguishable) cutting off one of the girl’s breasts also his actions of teaching them how to kill with a knife by cutting people’s throats.

That she was present and observed the occasion when Charlie, Tex and Clem set fire and burned the Federally owned skiploader on Death Valley National Monument property. That they had emptied the gas out of the skiploader and then men in turn set fire to it because it had been used to block the road. That there was a great deal of conversation about it at the time and that almost everyone who was living with the “Family” in the desert at that time was present at the time of the burning. That if necessary, rather than see anyone go free, she would be willing to testify in Court to this incident.

She stated that she had gone with Manson to the home of DENNIS WILSON at 14000 Sunset Boulevard, West Los Angeles. While at the Wilson residence, there was a conversation between Manson and Wilson regarding a man who died from a gunshot wound to the stomach. Dennis Wilson was interviewed by officers from an unknown police agency about this matter. During the conversation, Manson indicated that he had been the one that had killed the unknown person. This interview was tape recorded and will be retained for further examination.

DEPUTY GEORGE PALMER, #2885
DEPUTY WILLIAM C. GLEASON, #2165